Monday, March 28, 2011

A Student's Thoughts on the Late Great Min Pai

I studied with Min Pai for five years (after three years of training, first a year in Shotokan and then two years in the old Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do). When I found Min Pai's school I was looking for something different, something that wasn't commercial and had something serious at its core (though I didn't quite know what it was I was seeking).

After viewing schools all over the NYC area, from Joe Lopez' New York Gojukai to Mori's Shotokan school uptown, to Kyokushin at the B.A.M. (Tadashi Nakamura was then head instructor) to Tae Kwon Do (I viewed Richard Chun's downtown school and S. Henry Cho's uptown school) and what was then accessible in the Kung Fu arena, I found Min Pai's school and was impressed by the intensity of the workout (though I wasn't impressed by the lack of sharpness in the students' technique -- looked almost sloppy to me). Nevertheless, I decided to join there after Min Pai gave me a demonstration (which I later realized was tai chi pushing hands). It was different than anything I'd encountered in the martial arts before and, combined with the intensity of the training, I was sold.

Min Pai's style was then evolving though and, when I joined, it wasn't so different than what I was used to. It had simpler, more direct movements than the hip snapping and twisting I had been practicing but somewhat more flowery hand movements.

His style had apparently been a generic Korean karate -- this was the time when Taekwondo was still forming through the unification of the various Korean styles -- and he billed his school as the Yun Mu Kwan Karate Institute (which I later learned translated roughly as the Institute for Martial Studies Karate Institute). In fact, Yun Mu Kwan as a distinct style had long since faded away in Korea. (It Had been the generic Shotokan type karate initially brought back from Japan and taught at the Choson Yun Mu Kwan which was eventually renamed as the Ji Do Kwan style, meaning the Institute for Wisdom's Way.)

As near as I can tell, Min Pai had come to the U.S. as a young man with a black belt from the old Yun Mu Kwan and had decided to use that name when teaching karate (appropriate, since it would have been the style he earned his rank in). "Karate" of course was still the generic English term for kicking and striking arts with their roots in Japan and Okinawa.

In the late sixties and early seventies, when the newly unified Taekwondo representatives from Korea began coming to the U.S. and setting up schools for Taekwondo, eclipsing the more established Japanese styles for a while (in the days before Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Mixed Marial Arts), Min Pai apparently chose to remain oustide their fold. No doubt, he would have had to subordinate himself to the Korean organization, if he hadn't made that choice, and adopt their standards and rules, generally losing his autonomy. Something of a loner, he went his own way instead.

During this time he was very much involved with the kung fu community in New York's Chinatown (not far from where he had set up his New York school) and, by the time I joined in 1971, he had already begun replacing various of the generic Shotokan karate moves with kung fu movements, making small changes to the six basic forms on a piecemeal basis, and also changing some of the techniques and methods we used in class workouts. But what had attracted me to the school, the tai chi power he had demonstrated, was already present in his teaching.

He had begun, some time earlier, studying tai chi under the Taiwanese master Cheng Man-Ching who had opened a school in Chinatown and accepted non-Chinese. As Min Pai was of Korean derivation, his involvement with the kung fu community up to that point had apparently been at the margins, working out with and sparring with kung fu practitioners (many of whom still used to come up to his school to test themselves against him and his students while I was there). But he had, as far as I can tell, no formal training with any kung fu teachers until Cheng Man-Ching. His involvement with Cheng Man-Ching radically changed his approach to practicing and teaching martial arts.

Within the first year of my joining, he abruptly dropped the old Shotokan-based forms he had been teaching, wholesale, and replaced them with six new ones which had a more kung fu look to them (this was before we in America began to see the overhauled Taekwondo forms, the poomse). He never told us about the genesis of these new forms but I assumed he had developed them himself. The reason would eventually become clear as I learned them (rapidly, since I was already a brown belt and had to assimilate the lower rank forms at a faster-than-normal pace). What he was after was a system that was harmonious with the tai chi he had learned.

The hard, snapping, crisp-looking approach of traditional karate didn't fit with his understanding of Yang style tai chi which emphasizes natural movement, fluidity, softness, no visible force or strain in the movements. So his new forms, using kung fu movements grafted onto karate kata base patterns and executed in a way that was consistent with tai chi allowed the development of a sensitivity to movement, which he had come to feel was the real basis for effective combat.

In those years he never encouraged us to use any kind of armor or protection, arguing that real fights didn't happen with protection so you had to learn to operate without it. (I had many injuries as a result, including almost losing my manhood on a number of occasions and sustaining five black eyes over the years, leaving me, to this day, with vitreous floaters that obscure my vision when I get tired. On the other hand, I learned to fight without getting hurt in the end, even against very serious and dangerous opponents. Sometimes, looking back, I think I must have been an idiot as I could have lost my sight or worse, given some of the injuries.)

Min Pai also did not teach pre-planned combinations (at least by the time I got there) and no takedowns were evident in his repertoire (executed against an attacker who moves on you and then stands there as iffrozen in time). He dropped one-point (or one step) that first year I was there, too, along with push-ups and breaking (though I still had to break four boards for my first degree black belt test -- by the second, though, board breaking was gone, too).

He taught that you don't train by practicing combinations because every instant in a fight is unique and you have to learn to "respond", as he used to put it, not merely to "react". When dealing with an attacker what you did had to come from your deep physical understanding of what the other guy was doing, not from any set of patterned moves you had trained your body to execute in pre-planned scenarios.

Instead of the old karate drills, he introduced sticking hands (taken from Wing Chun but done more like they do it in Southern Mantis) at the brown belt level and tai chi pushing hands at black belt. Once you got your first degree black belt he introduced you to tai chi and that became the focus of the training. At lower levels you basically learned the moves and strengthened your body to perform each of them smoothly and in a connected way (this last was very important because everything that followed depended on feeling the connections in the moves).

Min Pai's style, which he continued to call Yun Mu Kwan in the five years I studied with him, became, in essence, a tai chi karate whose emphasis was on feeling the opponent's moves and, thus, controlling them through sensitive power. Like the various founders of the Kempo style(s), who essentially aimed to take traditional karate back to its kung fu roots (in their case by adopting various kung fu forms in whole or part and by emphasizing speedy kung fu-like combinations), Min Pai was looking for the root of empty hand combat. He believed he had found it in tai chi which he came to think superior to the hard karate of his youth.

He remained a loner and a sui generis martial artist to his dying day (in 2004) although in later years he dropped the old nomenclature of "karate" in favor of calling what he was teaching "kung fu". From my perspective it's not kung fu because it isn't a traditional kung fu system (though I suppose if you can call Bruce Lee's Jee Kune Do kung fu you can call his system that, as well).

As I left his school well before his openly "kung fu" period, I have always considered what I learned under him karate. It certainly isn't taekwondo since he never joined the other Korean karate teachers in creating that system. But I've seen pictures of his school from the sixties and from talking to students of his from before my time I gathered that his generic karate of that earlier period looked very much like taekwondo because, in those days, he was also emphasizing the higher and more extended kicking methods that have come to be the hallmark of the Korean stylists.

In my time, though, Min Pai's Yun Mu Kwan karate was a unique system of empty hand fighting that focused on natural movement, sensitivity to one's opponent, and spatial and internal control of the energy flow between the fighters at the instant of contact. From what little I have seen of his successors though, the ones teaching his system's later incarnation ("nabi su"), much has been lost.

In my day we fought all comers who entered the school, from any style and, when he thought we were ready, he sent us out to test ourselves in other schools. It looks like, in the later days, he and the group of students around him became increasingly insulated (I'm guessing it was intentional) and thus lost what had once been a real martial arts edge which had made his system of Yun Mu Kwan a real competitor with other more established styles.

Anyway, thanks for your references to Min Pai on the ITF list. It brought back a few memories and got me thinking about the variations in the martial arts again.

Stuart W. Mirsky

63 comments:

  1. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  2. Now that we've had a chance to connect off-line (and I finally seem able to actually respond here), I just wanted to acknowledge you're post. I'm looking forward to seeing how the style looks today, as we've been discussing, and to comparing the forms from my day with the way you learned them in the nineties and practice them today.

    SWM

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    1. I train there in 1968 made Gree belt
      Brown Belt was Wrigley , Nancy was a black belt and Rivers was a black belt

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    2. Ed Rigney was a brown belt when I came but became a black belt shortly thereafter. Nancy was only an occasional student there in my time, sometimes showing up to practice with us but not all that frequently. She wasn't bad but not one of the best. The regular black belts in my time were: Rivers, Lippin, Greene, Rigney, Ferraro, Borchetta (from the Connecticut school). Those who became black belts and joined that company included me, Weisberg, Pudlowski (both of these last left soon after but I stuck around) and, in my later years there, Fiske and Danza. Many others who were my contemporaries became black belts but after I had gone. As I said elsewhere here, I left in '76 after five years training with Min.

      He was a good martial artist and had developed a somewhat unique system of karate though he ceased using the term, "karate," in the last year or so that I was there. Later Carolyn Campora apparently continued Min's school after Min decided to retire to his monastery in NY state, north of NYC but she called what she was teaching kung fu.

      I think that is a misnomer because aside from t'ai chi (which is not generally considered kung fu in the sense in which the term is used like "karate," though, of course, it IS that), what Min taught is NOT any particular kung fu system. He taught a full syllabus of tai chi forms and practice (his version of Yang style plus a two man set, plus a t'ai chi sword form plus, of course, pushing hands) but for the rest he just adopted aspects of different kung fu systems to incorporate their forms or training methods with the core old-style karate curriculum that was his base.

      I think it's misleading to call Min's methods kung fu in the sense that "kung fu" means a particular style or system of martial art. In Chinese, of course, "kung fu" just means achievement through hard work and so the term is applicable to activities other than martial arts. But in the sense in which the term applies to martial arts styles, it is inappropriate, in my view, to call Min's style by that name.

      What about calling it "karate"? A similar concern applies but if one uses the term in the more generic western sense (rather than applying it to styles of striking and kicking combatives that are native to Okinawa and Japan where many of them took root), then it's appropriate to call what Min was teaching by that term, too. It's what he called it when I first walked in the door and joined his school even though he later dropped the term in favor of just calling what he was teaching "martial art." But THAT is too generic in my view because that term covers too much ground to be adequately descriptive. Jujutsu, judo, aikido, kendo, kyudo, silat, kali, all are martial arts, after all. While what Min taught fits that broader bill, it is too broad to effectively indicate the kind of martial art he was teaching.

      [Apparently what I want to say here is too long for a single post and so I am cutting the second half and posting it directly below.]

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    3. continuing:

      What kind of martial art was Min teaching then?

      It was an empty hand striking and kicking art grounded in the old generic Korean Shotokan karate that eventually became the arts we know today as taekwondo, tang soo do, su bahk do, hapkido, etc. Min apparently came over here from Korea with a black belt in the old generic Korean variant of Shotokan, brought back from Japan by a number of Korean college age men who picked it up while studying at universities in Japan during the first half of the twentieth century. Min seems to have come to America before the big changes that led to the fissioning apart of Korean karate into all those different forms and so his basic platform for training was an unspecialized, generic Korean Shotokan.

      The Koreans who brought Shotokan back to Korea may not have started out as great masters though because they were young men who began training others. They lacked the lineage claims of the Japanese and Okinawan styles which had various established masters of the art setting the pace. The Koreans at that point were mostly upstarts with lower level ranks and limited training. So they went their own way. Min was from that milieu though he seems to have been second generation, based on his age, so he trained with one or more of them. The karate he brought here and which I found when I began training with him, was looser without the emphasis on snapping and sharp articulation of the movements, without the exaggerated stepping and so forth. But where other Korean karate practitioners moved in a direction that incorporated higher and fancier kicking, larger movements in the kicks, strikes and blocks, than the Japanese were doing, Min seems to have moved in the other direction. As he became more and more involved with kung fu practitioners in the nearby area of New York's Chinatown, he incorporated more and more of their movements and techniques, gradually changing his system. He apparently gave up high, fancy kicking before my arrival. He changed the forms, from the old Shotokan based katas (or hyung in Korean), to new ones he apparently based on kung fu forms we had been introduced to by Min's old student, Kam Yuen, who visited our school about six months after I'd arrived. Kam Yuen had gone to China where he studied various forms of kung fu and then began teaching kung fu in California (and advising on movies and television shows).

      Min had us watch Kam's students perform their forms and then, something like six weeks later, he dropped all the old Shotokan based forms and replaced them with forms named like the ones Kam's students had shown us. But I was never sure if they were the same or just created by Min in the spirit of those because I hadn't been paying as close attention as I should have when they demonstrated them for us.

      Anyway, we had to learn the new ones in a rush (at least the higher belts did -- I was a brown belt by then) and, eventually, they became the cornerstone of Min's style, of his teaching. Although they had some weaknesses (lacking some of the clear articulation seen in the Japanese versions and some moves are quite hard to do well without a lot of practice) I have found them, on balance, to be good forms over the years. Much of what Min taught is embedded within them and so they encapsulate the bulk of his style from those days. In later years, after I had gone, Min apparently revamped those forms a second or third time (he was always tweaking his stuff) and the later versions seem quite different to me than what I learned. Nor do I like the later versions I have seen practiced very much. If it the old ones (those I still do) had some weaknesses, the later versions seem to me too busy and lacking in good pacing with movements that are too over exaggerated to be of any real use in actual fighting. Such movements telegraph rather than surprise.

      But I have kept Min's style going in my own practice for some 50 years by now and hope to continue to do so.

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    4. Wow! You took me back iam 70 years old I train under Grandmaster Min Pai starting in 1969 reach the level of Greenbelt I remember Ed Rigney, Nancy and Rivers Ed was a Brown Belt then Rivers and Nancy was black belts I believe iam Black American a student of the late Grandmaster Monroe Marrow aka Abdul Musawir at that time him training under Min Q.Pai
      And also Barry Jackson aka Sijo Abdul Mutakabbir I learned alot from Grandmaster Min Q.Pai I would love to talk with Ed Rigney Nancy and Rivershe was amazing I live in Saudi Arabia 🇸🇦now teach Boxing and mix martial arts

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  3. As a follow-up to our earlier correspondence above, and in acknowledgement of our several opportunities to work out together and to share stories of our respective "old days" since then, I'd just like to say that you impressed me Jason. Very strong and dedicated to preserving and developing the system which Min Pai developed in his day.

    Of course my version of the system, circa the early to mid 1970's, is somewhat different from yours. I don't know the later variations of his forms for instance (although I have, as you know, preserved the earlier versions over the years) and I don't know his late period "nabi su" form especially. But, on balance, I don't think our "styles" are so different. The sparring approach used by you and your colleagues seems much of a piece with what I learned all those years ago.

    So I find it strange when some talk about how much different the later style is. It's really not as far as I can tell, even if some of the practice methods and the forms differ. The same basic approach of reliance on sensitivity over strength and on natural, loose movement in lieu of sharply focused, complex moves, which are often dependent on specialized athletic prowess, that we see in so many modern styles of karate and taekwondo, still obtains.

    I think you can see that here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lM-aMW0IDmQ in our first sparring session which we engaged in shortly after the correspondence above. I guess I was pretty rusty and am kind of over the hill these days (not to mention not having been on the sparring floor for 25 years before we sparred that day!) but all in all, I think there were few surprises in how we each approached the game (other than your surprising me by how strong and difficult to reach you actually were). Thanks for the workouts since by the way. Helps keep me sharp!

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  4. Acquainted

    Greetings Stewart, I have a slightly different memory of Min and the time spent in the 8th Ave, dojo. First off a direct question I asked him early on was what was the meaning of "Yun Mu Kwan"? His answer simply was "Where Warriors Meet". Years ago I did a little research and found that there was a political element to a group named "Yun Mu Kwan" in Korea. It's difficult to describe how much that time with him has affected my life. I think of him all the time. I moved to Ca in 1969 and continued to practice his San Chin (not sure of Spelling) as he called it. It did go through changes while I was there (1968-1970). I knew he was studying with Master Cheng. Some of my fellow students you may know as they have stayed with their martial arts studies throughout the years. Monroe Marrow now known as Abdul something. Another was Demitri something. I wonder if you are acquainted with them. He called his system The Internal System". I am not sure when you began you time with Min but the classes that I was involved with were not sloppy at all. Perhaps the direction he moved to found that it had a different importance with the way students found themselves. I was deeply saddened with your news that he had passed. I had often thought that I would find the time to fly back to NY. and find him and just have a conversation with him. In the time I was with him he held to his "I don't socialize with my students" and it was hard to find out more about him. I know he broke his back on a skateboard and then began the study of soft styles eventually winding up with Tai Chi. Remember, "Breath Down to you Center". Sy

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  5. What he began teaching as Sanchin, adapted from either the Goju or Uechi Ryu versions of that form I think, was, by my time there, renamed Shim Kwan (or Shim Quan as I prefer to spell it to differentiate the second word from the "kwan" in "Yun Mu Kwan"). That form retained the forward and retreating patterns of Sanchin but not much else as he did away with the isometric tensing and heavy breathing that characterizes it in Goju, say, in favor of natural breathing and stepping (no pigeon toed sanchin stance anymore) and the hand moves were apparently adapted from t'ai chi, southern Mantis and Wing Chun, replacing the old Sanchin patterns.
    Shim Quan served the same purpose in his class, though, as sanchin did in Goju and Uechi Ryu schools. (Other styles using the sanchin form include Isshin Ryu and Kyokushin and, in its Chinese version, "Sanzhan," the various southern White Crane systems.)

    From my research I learned that "yun mu kwan" means something like hall or institute of martial study. (I presume Min just gave an approximate explanation of the meaning since warriors would meet in a hall of martial study after all!) Yun Mu Kwan was one of the earliest Korean karate styles adapted from Shotokan but it largely disappeared around the time of the Korean War, its former students resuming practice after the war under new teachers (their old teacher, Chun Sang Sup having gone missing during the war). The revived system was renamed "Ji Do Kwan" or hall or institute of virtue's way. (Ji= virtue, do=way, kwan=hall or institute). There is also another later "kwan" that claims to be a direct derivative of the old Yun Mu Kwan but which doesn't consider itself descended through the Ji Do Kwan lineage. All the kwans were eventually unified under the Korean national fighting sport of taekwondo though.

    I knew Monroe Marrow but only from outside the school (met him once or twise) as he was no longer practicing there by the time I arrived. I met Demetrio Danyluk a few times when he came to work out with us but he was no longer a regular student. I also recall David Claudio joining us a few times, Francisco Miranda and Barry Jackson (he also took a new name). I was told that Danyluk was very, very good in his prime but he wasn't in his prime when he came back those few times. In my day the top student was Tom Rivers who became something of a legend. He was the best martial artist I had ever seen though he was always very self effacing about that (and very private).

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  6. The sloppiness I referred to above, by the way, is perhaps better described as looseness. I had come from stints with Shotokan and then Moo Duk Kwan (when that style was still largely a high kicking version of Shotokan) and I was very drawn to the sharp, snapping movements characteristic of the Japanese and Okinawan systems. Min's students looked very informal to me by comparison. They didn't all move the same way but they were intense in their movements which kind of sold me on how serious they actually were.

    I soon learned that Min was teaching natural relaxed movement which was the antithesis of the sharp almost uptight moves in Japanese and Okinawan styles I found so intriguing. Min's workouts were intense, too, even though the students tended to do the moves in a less formalized way than I had been used to. It took me the better part of a year (perhaps as many as two!) to shake off the staccato like snapping movements I had previously learned and had been so enamored of.

    One of the things that had drawn me to study with him, rather than at one of the Japanese schools, was the remarkable intensity I observed at the first class I watched during my search for a teacher. But I had already noticed that most of the Korean schools did tend to look looser in their movements, less strong or articulated than the Japanese. I guess that came with their emphasis on kicking, since high kicks require a certain looseness to achieve the extension and produce the bodily momentum needed to deliver such kicks with any real power. I just figured that, since Min's was a Korean style (though I'd never heard of it before) that was the way Koreans did it. (I have since concluded, by the way, that part of the explanation for the different mode of movement was that early Japanese karate was also much looser and more natural looking -- that's what you see in some of those old videos -- so the Koreans who brought karate back to their native land were probably just expressing the style as they had learned it, before excessive formalization may have set in. Also they were probably less accomplished in general than their Japanese teachers because they were university level students for the most part, returning after a few years of study to Korea.)

    I never saw Min doing high kicks or even spinning back kicks which were the mainstay of Korean stylists in the days I was there which is probably ascribable to the injury he took in his back in that accident you allude to. That also likely explains his shift to a grounded style eschewing high kicks and acrobatics and relying mainly on the hands (despite the old photos I'd seen of him doing high kicking). It was better for me though since high kicking was never my strength (I have short limbs relative to my torso and am not naturally limber and, being small framed, I was never able to pack the kind of wallop in my kicks even during my taekwondo days that such kicking requires).

    The style Min put together by melding kung fu hand moves with basic karate, relying on the natural movement and sensitivity training of t'ai chi, worked for me though so I never felt a need to look further after my time in his school. He was thus my last karate teacher (I had had three before him -- one Shotokan teacher and two Moo Duk Kwan taekwondo teachers) and I've never regretted the time I put in with him.

    If you're interested here's a link to me doing Shim Quan in 2012 (not a young guy anymore but still practicing):

    https://plus.google.com/+StuartMirsky/posts/6jFYStAjUKT

    There's not much left of the original Sanchin from which it was adapted when you look at it though!

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  7. By the way, while "sanchin" apparently means "three battles," the name he adopted for his core form, "shim quan," means, as he used to explain, mind fist. One of my fellow students used to translate it as "intelligent fist" but when Min explained it to us he put his hand on his heart, indicating that the "mind" meant by "shim" was the one of feeling, of awareness, of being sensitive to what's happening so I think "intelligent fist" is not a good translation. Anyway, as you can see from that link I provided, shim quan is very different than its ancestor form sanchin.

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    1. After some thoughts and rereading your comments I would ad that even in my time with Min which ran from 1967-69 there was little emphasis on muscle and almost all emphasis on Chi. "Breath down to your center" to advance toward chi and enlightenment. We were transiting from hard to soft in many forms. As for his high kicks he once demonstrated a spinning kick on a student for me with the student facing away from him and in the blink of an eye it was if he was sweeping off the dust from a friends jacket. So I knew he was still nimble. Demetrio knows more about Min's back accident. Min was also a portrait artist in the Village and I believe taught a subject or two at one of the universities in the city. Rumor had it that among his attributes was mathematician. Rivers was a black belt when I studied there and after Demetrio stopped coming on a regular basis he was the top black belt there. Min practiced push hands with him constantly and I watched him throw Rivers up against the wall a thousand times. I never saw Rivers win once. I guess it seemed a bit disingenuous and I felt a little weird about it. I am glad I found your site. I am seventy two now and the flame still burns with the studies/glory days/nostalgia of my youth at the 14st & 8th avenue MA school.

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    2. Some years after I'd arrived Rivers had reached the point where Min could no longer easily toss him about. In fact, in many ways I think he had become Min's equal. When I first arrived he didn't impress me all that much (except for his intensity and dedication). When outside black belts would come round to work out with us they used to knock him around quite a bit. I was there for five years, a black belt with Min for four (I had studied previously, as noted, for about three years) and during that time I saw Rivers transform into a nearly invincible fighter. Min encouraged him not to hold back (I suppose that was part of his problem in the earlier years) and eventually he didn't. He gave me numerous black eyes and other injuries but it taught me to be wary (I was always too aggressive and my time at the school taught me to be careful as well). Rivers developed a punch that was nearly impossible to stop and terrible to be hit by, even when he was holding back. His kicks were long and high though not especially fancy in the way taekwondo kicks are. But his hands were deadly. And he was very hard to get in on.

      Towards the end when he and Min fought though I could see they were roughly equal. One day Min was demonstrating his ability to take a full on strike and he had Rivers deliver the blow, point blank to his solar plexus. It moved Min back a couple of feet and we then went on with the rest of the class. The next day when Rivers was out, Min lifted his gi and showed us the place Rivers had struck. There was a black and blue mark roughly in the shape of Rivers' palm on Min's solar plexus. I got the sense that Rivers had really hurt him but he never let on.

      Older students told me Danyluk was better than Rivers and I suppose that's probably true when it came to kicking in the old taekwondo way which Min had been teaching some time before my arrival in 1971. But I saw Danyluk, who joined us once or twice when I was there for old time's sake I guess, and he was nowhere near Rivers' league by that point. But, again, Rivers' techniques were all plain and simple in keeping with what Min was teaching in my day. Rivers was very loose and could do the high kicks but he rarely bothered with anything but the front kick and an occasional round kick. He just drilled right in, the way Min was then teaching us, and in the last years that I was there his ultra thin frame took on a bit more flesh and he became much more solid. Min had always said he was too flexible and needed to gain a little rigidity in his movements and I guess he did.

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  8. I should correct one thing I said above. I think Ji Do Kwan actually means the hall (or institute) of wisdom's way, not "virtue's" as I wrote above. Sorry for the misinformation but there doesn't seem to be any way to correct errors on this site. By the way, do you mind sharing your name? I take it we never trained together, given the period you mentioned you were there. I didn't discover Min's school until 1971.

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  9. Stuart, my name is Sy Richman. By 1971 I had already been on the West Coast for about a year. It is hard to believe that Rivers became so powerful and commanding. I guess with the right amount of mental and physical training, all things find their way. I studied fanatically for a couple of years. I worked across the street from the gym and when I saw Min arrive and open, I was there. Usually around three or four o’clock. I worked at his teaching until closing about nine oclock. I did this for about the first fifteen months and Min took notice and I skipped a grade or two. I became distracted and obsessed with leaving NY and moving to the West Coast with my wife and two children. Min said to me that the move did not matter as I told him I hated NY and wanted out. I also told him that I felt NYC was a gas chamber and I was tired of having to look strait up to see the sky. He did not reply. He was disappointed with me as I had dropped my attendance considerably and I think he saw a possible long term dedicated student. By the way, I have never been hit as hard by anyone like Monroe Marrow. I looked him up and he is totally into Tai Chi. There is a video of him demonstrating the form. He was introduced with great honors and there nickmane for him wa "The Bone Crusher". There is a weird story or event that transpired with him and me but that is for another day. Toward the end of my study at YMK Monroe introduced me to his cousin Barry. I wonder if it the same Barry that you spoke of. He was black with light skin, very strong build and he was a white belt at the time. I did go up to Harlem with Monroe a couple of times to train but I was already preparing to leave NY at was not focused on MA as before. I left before my black belt testing. I wish I had taken my training to at least that level to garner the accomplishment.
    Good to talk with you,

    Sy Richman - syjen@pacbell.net


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    1. I believe Barry Jackson can be found online these days under the name Abdul Mutqabbir. He was a brown belt when I knew him (I was either green or brown myself so that dates this to some time between 1971 or 72). He had very long limbs. I recall sparring him -- very hard for me as I'm very short and small framed. He caught me in the throat with a beautifully executed side kick and I could barely talk for a month, until my larynx finally recovered!

      Monroe (now Abdul Mussawir) was one of Min's tournament champions in the old days, before my time (since Min wasn't teaching a tournament oriented system when I got there). Rivers became a kind of legend for the deadliness of his technique on the sparring floor but he was always very self-effacing, perhaps because he remembered his earlier self, the skinny relatively weak fighter you seem to recall. His technique was utmost simplicity itself even though he had the flexibility and reach of any of the best Taekwondo style fighters which characterized Min's earlier teaching. His limbs created an almost impenetrable shield for defense, his timing was impeccable and if you came in too much you felt his power. I had five black eyes in those days, one for each year I was there and most of them came from sparring him!

      But I guess I better understand his humility after reading what you recall about him. I had heard he was with Min a very long time, maybe ten years by the time I walked in there, so he probably saw himself as he had been. For students of my day that was hard to even imagine.

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  10. Stewart, have you seen this?


    http://www.minpaigrandmaster.org/

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  11. I have. It appears to be the work of his later students, the ones who migrated with him to the Wellspring Zendo which he built and lived in during his later years. Since I left in 1976 and gave up contact with the school except for two brief visits in 1980, I'm not really familiar with these individuals. They are, I must assume, mostly after my time. I have had no contact with them except once via email in a discussion about an article a student of one of Min's other students was writing online. Jason Perri, who responded initially to my article on Min and who taught the style for several years in Connecticut knows them though and might be able to offer some comments.

    I do know that some of his later students believe he and his teaching reached a higher level in later years, which surpassed his earlier level so old-timers like me have really been left behind though we don't realize it. As you might imagine, I'm not sold on that. I was a student there in the midst of the transition, among the first of his students to learn his new forms that replaced the old Shotokan heian forms (though he apparently revised them again in the late eighties so they're different from the ones I still do, though bearing the same names). And I learn t'ai chi (Yang style) under his tutelage as well as to sit Zazen under his Zen master, Eido Roshi. The martial art style Min was teaching in my day was not the earlier tournament oriented karate he taught in the sixties. So as you can imagine, I'm not overwhelmed by the claims they're making.

    I remember when Min first conceived the idea of building his own Zendo and initiated that effort, though I elected not to participate myself and left that year or the following. I don't know much about the abilities or accomplishments of those who came after me except to the extent I have met and "crossed swords" with them and I have not, to the best of my knowledge done so with members of Wellspring. The appointed martial arts successors Min left, as far as I know, were Tom Rivers and Jim Stewart. A few others are still around teaching a version of his style but not many.

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    1. Some of the dates put forth in the website I sent you are way off. Min was studying with master Chen in the sixties and I believe they stated some were students with nim in the fifties. It also seems they are trying to discredit some folks that are making claims of association with Min Pai that are false. I thought Min was a great MA teacher however I find it odd in thoughts of life devotion sort of thing. If I dare, and this comes after the experience of watching Rivers at beckand call and being slammed into a wall thousands of times, I would have to say that Min was as good at making slaves as he was his master teaching of MA. I hope this sect like group does not send out assassins to change or eliminate my hypothetical meandering thoughts.

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    2. Well, as I said, I don't know any of them. I believe they were affiliated with Min in his later years, from the late 70's on (I left him in '76). Rivers, in his day, was a dedicated student in the eastern sense, i.e., being devoted to one's teacher. He completely subordinated himself to Min but that was only in terms of martial arts. He did not alter his life for Min nor did he do Min's bidding in other areas such as the Zendo Min built. On his death bed Min apparently designated him as one of his successors in the martial arts but as far as I know Rivers did not carry on the system Min established.

      Frankly, I respected him tremendously for his absolute devotion to learning what Min had to teach. Rivers was the first among us to take up sitting meditation when Min brought it in and was always an early arrival at the school and among the last to depart and he was always the most intense meditator among us.

      I actually got to the point where I would get there earlier than he did and close the school afterwards when Min gave me a key to the school. But it was watching Rivers in action that let me know that was even possible.

      I would not say Rivers was a slave to Min. He was devoted in the way a keen student in the Asian tradition would be to his teacher and that, I think, was the secret to the progress he eventually made. He wasn't a big strong guy nor was he a natural athlete with superior coordination. He was incredibly limber and flexible though but, needless to say, you need more than that to be a good fighter.

      Min did develop a kind of guru complex during my time there. Students went from addressing him as Mr. Pai to calling him Master Pai though I don't know how or exactly when that began. I suppose the Wellspring folks reflect Min's later approach to things. As far as I know, Rivers was never part of the Wellspring group and, indeed, he wasn't part of any of the school activities we participated in as a group including post-seminar feasts in Chinatown at the Yun Luck Rice Shop. Rivers' devotion, as far as I could tell, began and ended at the doorway to 75 Eighth Avenue.

      On the issue of the Wellspring site, it looks like there may be some internecine disputes going on between different factions of students who were affiliated with Min at various stages. He had his New York school and the Connecticut school as you probably know and, eventually, those students who were affiliated with the Wellspring Zendo where he merged martial arts practices with Zen practice and t'ai chi.

      I believe his Wellspring students initially came from the two schools but it looks like they eventually coalesced into their own group. It looks to me like the Wellspring group believes it has a proprietary interest in Min's legacy. Doesn't affect me though because I go my own way. I've kept up practicing what I learned from Min for over 40 years and can still do the forms he taught me as he taught them then. Since I don't teach anyone and really don't train with anyone else except for occasionally meeting up with Jason and his crew (a remnant of the old Connecticut hands plus some alumni of the New York school) I have no reason to be at odds with Wellspring or for them to bother with me!

      There is another successor school still operating in lower Manhattan but with a changed name and lots of innovations, and there were two other successor schools (one in uptown Manhattan and another in upstate New York though I don't know if either are in operation anymore) and Jason Perri (who responded above), who formerly ran a school in Stamford Connecticut, is now relocated to Florida. But, along with the Wellspring crew, that appears to be the extent of current practitioners of Min's style.

      Not much of a martial arts legacy I'm afraid but perhaps reflecting his own movement away from heavy involvement in the martial arts in favor of Zen in his later life.

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    1. MG: I was a student at Min's school from 1987-2002. I have been in contact and have met up and workout with a lot of the older students from the 70's. I am still in contact with a handful of them and get together and workout from time to time. Seeing the older forms, i believe they were much more direct and effective then the versions i learned. I am in the process of learning the older forms. My practice today consists of Shim Kwan, Tai Chi, push hands and sparring. If you would ever like to get together and workout, please let me know. I probably workout with some of your old classmates. Let me know if this interests you at all. You can reach me at jperri@ymail.com. I can pass along the names of group i get together with via email.. JP

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    12. What else would you like to know?

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    14. Jason:

      Danyluk and Marrow were not students in the same era as when I, Mitch and his brother were there. I never saw Marrow on the sparring floor in my time (only met him afterwards) but Danyluk came back once or twice while I was there. Others who came back on occasion were David Claudio and Francisco Miranda. I'd be surprised if Mitch recalls any of them coming back afterwards because there was a great gap opening between the old tournament style students who had trained with Min Pai in the sixties and those of us who trained with him in the seventies, but I'll let Mitch comment on his recollections which may not always match my own.

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    17. By the way Pai eventually included hook punches in the class regimen

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    22. Great. I will be up end of October if you want to get together for a workout..

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    27. I wouldn't put it as "felt threatened," Jason. He simply responded to what came his way as Mitch is describing. If it was light and careful, so was he. If it was strong and/or aggressive, he received it and returned it with the same level, or greater, force. I don't recall him using joint locks in my day but then we never sparred to the point of wrestling each other -- or at least I didn't. In my case I felt his hands and feet were so dangerous that they warranted my respect so I preferred not to close with him on the sparring floor (though, of course, we did pushing hands and sticking hands extensively and he was impressive in these exercises, too -- and working with him was a marvelous learning experience).

      Did Rivers dominate on the sparring floor. In the latter years of my stint there he most certainly did, with all comers. He was not a great technician in the sense of having a large arsenal of impressive looking moves but he was capable of pretty much anything when you closed with him and his power was bloody dangerous. If you didn't respect what he had, you quickly got injured. Mitch's account of that match with him brings back memories of the guy. That's how it was.

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  14. I left before Rivers actually, in '76. I left because I came to believe I had achieved what I went there to get, some decent competence as a fighter (being small of stature, I had do work at it, of course). Min actually tried to convince me to return but I wasn't really into the Wellspring stuff and I had a new born kid at home and realized I wanted to spend my evenings with my wife and new child rather than punching and kicking my way around the practice hall. I didn't leave until I got to the point where I could stand up in a bout with Rivers and Min himself. When I could I figured I was ready. However, sometimes I still wonder if I gave up martial arts too soon. Of course, I've continued to practice on my own for some forty years so, though getting old now, I can still do a lot of what I once could. But sometimes, especially now, I still wonder if I didn't leave too much on the table back then.

    I don't recognize your initials. "MG"? Can you share your name with me? You can do it off line if you prefer (swmirsky@aol.com).

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  17. I had lost touch with Min Q Pai for decades and just today decided to look him up. What a profound impact he had in my life. I studied with him sometime in the late 60's I believe. Since then I spent years studying Tai Chi with William Chen but have such great memories of Min. Some of those memories are in picture form: me trying a reverse kick in a class to upgrade to a certain belt and falling on my ass! I also remember blocking a kick, dislocating a finger and having Min calmly putting it back in place.

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  18. I forgot to click on 'notify me', which I did just now.

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  19. Interesting to hear from yet another alumnus of the school. We are all scattered now, it seems, and there is no centralized legacy or tradition. A great shame, considering Min's style was so unique for its time.

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  20. Hmm, did my comment go through? I pressed "publish" but ddon't see it here!

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  21. yup - came through. Funny how the idea to look him up popped into my head 40 years after last seeing him. He did have a big impact in my life. I admired him enormously. I have memories of having a finger dislocated by a kick during sparring. And Min came over calmly and snapped it back.

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  22. If you studied with him in the late sixties you'd have been there when his teaching was still traditional Shotokan-based sport oriented karate, right. I got there around '71 and it still had that as its foundation but was already transitioning. I had come from a Shotokan/Moo Duk Kwan background and most of what he was teaching still looked sort of like that so it was recognizable to me. There was more looseness in the movements than I was accustomed to, less emphasis on perfecting stances and techniques to fit an ideal, and more emphasis on being natural. Within a couple of years of my arrival though, the training had changed significantly. He replaced the old Shotokan based core forms with new ones that looked more like you'd see in some kung fu systems and the training exercises became the sticking hands of Wing Chun kung fu and the pushing hands of Yang style t'ai chi ch'uan in lieu of the older one step and three step drills of more classical karate. We became increasingly focused on practicing the principles of those kung fu systems rather than the Japanese/Korean stuff.

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  23. Phillip, Do you recall any of the other students in your class at that time? Korff, Rivers, Danyluk, Jackson, Monroe Murrow??

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  24. yes I do.. trying to remember his name. I think an east European and a black belt. I see his face in my mind but not getting his name. Maybe Danyluk.. Do you know his first name?

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  25. Stuart may know. That was way before my time

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